#StartupOfTheWeek – DominoPOS

Retail is a huge market in Asia. But the diversity of Asian countries make it a challenge to properly address it. Let’s hear the study of Bruno Zysman, who’s been in the frontlines for the last 25 years. I bet you have a few things to learn!

Hi Bruno, so what’s your story?

I am 58 and I have been in Asia for 25 years.  Given my age I can’t say I’m a startupper, but I’ve always been an entrepreneur.

I created my first company back in France to plug hard drives on the first computers like Commodores, for those who you remember. The hard drives had a capacity of 5MB and they were the size of a coffee table!

I met a client who was looking for a smart cards system for Carrefour (one of the largest hypermarket chains in the world). When searching for solutions I met GemPlus and I joined their Value-Added Resellers network. This is how I entered the retail industry, with loyalty cards.

Funny anecdote: I won the award for the best eWallet system worldwide, back in 1993. I had built it for Club Med and the idea was simple: enable tourists to pay everything in a resort with a dedicated card. Today it doesn’t seem extraordinary, but it was a first!

After the award, Marc Lassus, CEO of GemPlus, invested in my company. He was my first investor ever, and I don’t even remember how much he invested.

With this I developed markets like Malaysia or North Africa, until GemPlus advised me to try and produce low-cost. I traveled to find the right country, and this is how I moved to Indonesia in 1995.

What have you been doing in Indonesia?

I worked with Ingenico for a while, running the tests for the payment terminals for Mastercard and Visa. The company grew to 150 people.

Fast forward to 2009, when the iPad came out. I immediately saw this as the future of cash registers in stores, and more broadly as a way to transform advertising in malls.

I created DominoPos to address this opportunity and we worked on securing the connexion between the Ipad and payment terminals. We have many patents on this.

Funny anecdote: I first raised 200k among friends and family for the MVP and I was looking for an additional 800K in my first round. But an Indonesian investor told me I probably needed more than that and offered 2M.

This investor also advised me to launch a more scalable, digital product in the space: GoToMalls was born. It’s a complete omnichannel advertising platform.

The problem we’re addressing is simple: today if you want to use coupons in a mall you have to use the app of the mall, so you end up with multiple apps on your phone that you rarely use.

Our platform is a directory of all the malls and brands that offer coupons to consumers. But the way we propose coupons is very unique. We’re not another Groupon. We have a very strong content strategy: we publish 300 lifestyle articles every week and this is how we promote the coupons -and this proves very efficient.

For brands, the value proposition is very powerful. Our premise is to increase their footfall (the number of people who enter the store) if they propose coupons with us.

We also provide a lot of data  (like the percentage of men and women) so they can improve their RoI. This is invaluable for them, and we take a cut on the sales.

What is GoToMalls in numbers?

Today we have 50M visitors in Indonesia and we’re adding 1.2 M unique visitors every single month. I am impressed myself! We used paid acquisition in the beginning but today we don’t need it anymore and we grow organically.

Indonesia is a great market for us: ecommerce is not very developed since logistics is complicated, and most people have several mobile phones. There are 450 malls in Indonesia and we have onboarded 432 of them!

Frankly we don’t really have competitors. We had 2 in the past but they both died. We clearly have a first mover advantage, and with the traction we have, every day it makes it harder for others to catch-up.

Today we can open a country in 8 days: we crawl their site, then we verify it, we call the malls and reference them, then we go and meet with the brands.

How about the business in Singapore?

WhenI opened Singapore I decided to literally immerse myself into the ecosystem. I have been to all the malls here, but also all the co-working spaces, to understand the dynamics and the true behaviours of younger people. We did several events, like the one last year with La FrenchTech.

Today I know that brands are just at the beginning of their journey in digital and data.

There are 2 problems; online-to-offline and in-store. Today we’re addressing the first problem, now I want to work on the other one. The Internet Of Things is a huge opportunity for that.

Travel Retail is also a huge opportunity I’m looking at -everybody eyes on the hundreds of millions of Chinese people who are starting to travel!

Last question: what do think it takes to be an entrepreneur?

To me it all comes down to one thing: being a good listener.

Sure, you need to be resilient, creative in solving problems, etc. But the one quality you need is to truly listen to your staff.

I learned it the hard way. I have been in both situations as a CEO and the performance is radically different. When you really listen to your people, people are engaged and you collectively have better ideas. It’s as simple as that.

Being the boss doesn’t mean you’re right. Being 58 years old, I always hire people younger than myself and I find them awesome. When I sit down with them I constantly take notes, I keep learning. They know and I don’t, period!

More resources

GoToMalls

DominoPos

#StartupOfTheWeek – Toku World

Toku World is a cloud B2B communication platform founded in 2018. After 5 quarters of nice growth, they’re raising funds for a Series A. After a final at Echelon 2019 and semi final at the French Founders Startup Tour, hopefully they’re on a good trajectory. Interview with Thomas Laboulle, CEO.

Hi Thomas, what’s your background?

Actually I have a military background. I went to the Royal Military Academy in Belgium, the equivalent of St-Cyr in France. I know it sounds unusual! At the same time I continued my studies in business and corporate finance. I felt the military degree was very general but without any specialty.

I did several missions in the field and when I came back from Afghanistan I needed a break. I took a year off and was accepted in a management traineeship program in a consulting company. This has been eye-opening for me: I loved meeting a lot of people in many different industries and creating bridges between them.

What’s interesting is that my generalist diploma has been very useful for this. In the army you are put in real situations quickly and that teaches you a very special way to think.

It’s all about quick and pragmatic decision making and it was incredibly useful in my first projects. I believe many larger companies are actually scared of making choices and deciding. The military approach precisely enables this.

Anyway I worked on large, multinational IT projects for about 4 years and then I built my own consulting company to have more flexibility.

End of 2014 I had an opportunity for an ERP implementation project in Singapore in a Fintech so I moved here. Through this project I met a billionaire who then hired me to do due-diligence for his team before investing.

He introduced me to  somebody who was a board member of a Singaporean SMB. The company was 15 years old and missed its IPO end of 2015 so he was looking for someone to replace the CEO. I decided to take on the challenge.

I arrived at GlobalRoam in june 2016 and I discovered the world of telecoms,  For 18 months I completely restructured the company and did a management buyout. In April 2018 we started operating as Toku World after a quick round of seed funding.

So tell us more about Toku?

Sure. Today all companies must communicate and engage with their customers and prospects. Communication must be frequent, personalized and on all channels. Obviously it includes social media, but also the more traditional channels like SMS, voice or video calls. These are the only truly universal channels.

A study showed in the US showed that people use at least 2 different communication channels when they face an issue -and they need a one-to-one channel. This is the problem we address and we add a context to the communication by integrating their CRM, ERP or Customer Care platforms. Surprisingly many companies are still lagging behind!

We do this in 2 ways:

  • APIs

For tech companies, we provide the APIs so that they can integrate classic voice, voice over IP, video or SMS.

  • Interface

Some companies aren’t techy and don’t know how to use an API. The bulk of the economy today is brick-and-mortar. So we also provide a complete interface to make it easier for them. It’s the case of Redwood, a manufacturer of  interior fittings for luxury stores, who have built the Louis Vuitton store at Marina Bay Sands.

Other customers include GOJEK’s customer care department, UnaBiz who uses our messaging API for their IoT business, and Waitrr to generate their OTPs.

Toku is a cloud B2B communication platform

How do you bring novelty in this traditional market?

Our market is interesting because what we do has actually been around for years

When we replace the on-premise PBX of a company -it basically provides the same kind of services, but our APIs make it much more flexible and fast to integrate with other systems.

Quite frankly this is still revolutionary, and we have to do a lot of market evangelization. We spend a lot of time explaining customers what APIs are, how to use them and integrate them. These discussions are important because it is about business model, not technology. This is where my past as a consultant helps.

How do you think Asia is different from other regions?

In our industry Europe is very developed and mature so there’s a legacy. Equipments have been in place for decades so when you want to replace them, there is a form of cannibalisation which creates a lot of friction. The added value is simply not always sufficient to justify change.

In Asia on the other hand, many countries have leapfrogged or are leapfrogging. They skip the older systems and this is good for us. The demography is also favorable for us because younger people are always on their mobile phone.

So we focus on Asia and we are really well positioned here. More precisely we target countries who launched global digitization programs of society or the economy. In Singapore for instance there has been a real push from the government on the gov tech, smart nation and digitization in general. Indonesia has launched a similar program, which is a good sign for us.

Regulation is important as well -when a country impose new regulations this requires a level of expertise that differentiates us. A good example is Indonesia and the Personal Data Protection Bill that prevents phone numbers from being shared.

Overall Asia is just much more dynamic, we have an incredible traction here, period!

Startup Of The Week – Ascent

Mobility has been an incredibly hot topic for several years -Just think about the flurry of ride-hailing apps in most countries worldwide! But one mode of transportation largely remains untapped: helicopters. We sat down with Lionel Sinaï-Sinelnikoff, CEO and Founder of Ascent, a startup who is changing just that.

What’s your background and how did you come to Singapore?

I studied between France and the UK. I joined Airbus Helicopters in France 16 years ago, and quickly moved to Mexico where I stayed for 5 years. I actually started my first company there, which was an art gallery. As I wanted to keep discovering Latin America, I then joined the Chile subsidiary which was in the startup phase.

After about 3 years, we did great but I felt I deserved a break. So I resigned to backpack across the continent. During this trip I created a startup to explore an idea around the sound spaces in stores, malls, etc. It was incubated by Telecom ParisTech. Long story short, after a year or so it did not go as expected.

Luckily, when I didn’t have much left in the bank, my former boss offered me to join him in Singapore to head the commercial activity for Southeast Asia. Progressively I took other leadership responsibilities and I did that for 6 years.

The job was very interesting and incredible. The market is very diverse, with countries  like Singapore but also Nepal or Timor. And Customers in the Helicopters industry are very different: you can meet a billionaire in the morning, then a hospital and finally a mountain rescue organization.

I remember a funny anecdote. I was at a Customer’s house, and had two tigers and a bear instead of cats or dogs. And after we made the deal he offered to do a karaoke and took me to a room where he had a full live band just for him to do karaokes!

Anyways, after that I joined REAPRA investment firm and venture builder. And this is where together we decided to create Ascent.

So what is Ascent?

Ascent is an Urban Air Mobility platform. We aim to make cities more connected by offering ride-sharing and on-demand flights. We utilise helicopters today and eVTOLs (flying taxis) in the future.

Our value proposition is simple: we save our users a lot of time while providing an superb and affordable experience. We seamlessly transport them within and between major hubs of activity such as airports, business hubs or leisure hotspots.

Prices start at 180 SGD per passenger to make an hour drive a 5 minutes flight. To do this, we’ve built an ecosystem made of best in class air operators, heliports and hospitality providers, enabled by a proprietary technology stack.

I created Ascent a year ago together with Darren T’ng and REAPRA backed the project. Darren comes from tech companies, so I bring the helicopter industry experience and he brings his tech and marketing expertise.

Where do you stand as a business?

We initially raised 500 KUSD, and after a year in the making Ascent is now live in the Philippines. You can read more in Bloomberg or the Straits Times. We have the official support from the Department of Transport there and we have established the ecosystem needed for our urban air mobility operation. This is a huge achievement since it includes regulations, operations, customer experience, digital platform, vertiport networks, etc.

In less then a month we already see an encouraging traction from the market and a broad media coverage across APAC. We also have hundreds of inquiries and our revenue numbers are in line with our projections.

We have flown 200 people since the start of the project, which makes us really proud.

Today the team is composed of 8 people split between our Singapore and our Manila offices. After the Philippines we expect to expand to other locations of Southeast Asia by the end of the year.

One of Ascent Flights’ helicopter

You’re in a fascinating market, what are the key drivers?

Today most operators have an underutilized fleet and infrastructure. This is a huge, untapped opportunity, which we’re addressing in a very simple way. Basically we’re telling them: just give us access to your inventory and we’ll digitize it and provide a simple way for people to book flights with you. Operators love us because none of them do this today.

We have 3 target segments.

First, the business community. The market already exists but it is very cumbersome. We change it by providing an easy, digital and premium user experience for a lower price. This is our main target for now. These are very time sensitive people willing to be free of any traffic and connectivity hurdles.

Second, we have what we call the lifestyle customers. The idea is that today many people choose where they live based on where they work and the traffic to go there. With our service they have much more options and a better lifestyle. But these people are not necessarily used to helicopters so we have to create this market.

Last, the tourists. Obviously we simplify the booking of a pure leisure trip to discover a city from the sky, but it can also be to go from the airport to their hotel  or even to move around the city. Here we make it more fun, flexible and easy to book a flight. This is a promising opportunity.

Can you elaborate on the user experience?

Sure. This is our key différentiation. We make everything digital, premium and dead simple. You can book your flight online, you choose your seat and your route, you can choose if you need a car to take you to or from the heliport, etc.

In addition to the online piece, we have teams onsite to take care of you and everything has been carefully curated and designed: our partners, the locations, the lounges, etc.

We sometimes get asked how we would compete with Uber. Well this will be a huge advantage. It’s not just a ride-sharing app for helicopters, it’s a complete experience.

Last question: what do think it takes to be an entrepreneur?

Interesting question! There are many aspects, let me think…

The first thing is probably the willingness to build things. An entrepreneur is someone with a vision and the burning desire to build it and make it happen. There might be an irrational component to it by the way, but as an entrepreneur you should always follow your instinct.

But I think entrepreneurs want to “contribute”. What I mean by that is that as an entrepreneur you need to make money, but this must never be the driver. You’re trying to solve a problem for people. This is what drives everything you do, not the money.

Then there’s resilience. Everyday there’s a ton of shit issues you have to deal with and each one could be a reason to give up! So you must be very resilient to continue whatever it takes. But resilient doesn’t mean stubborn. You must stay humble and learn to adapt to the changing conditions. If you desperately stick to your original idea there’s a huge risk to build something nobody wants. I made this mistake in my first company and paid the price! Today at Ascent we test everything to adjust. The website, our offers, the routes, customer data, etc. Testing takes approximately 30% of the whole team’s time.

There’s also the ability to gather around you the right people. Folks who are smarter than you and from whom you can learn. This very important and it is true for your co-founders, your staff as well as investors.

And finally you have to be able to get your hands dirty. Many things just need to get done and as an entrepreneur you must lead by doing, period. And it is important because you can’t delegate something you can’t do yourself.

Oh and a important advice for all entrepreneurs: take care of your body. I know that if I don’t eat well, if I lack some sleep or don’t do enough sport, I’m just a complete mess!

#StartupOfTheWeek – BeeBryte

BeeBryte is a French startup focused on a problem we all care about: energy consumption in buildings. They have developed a solution based on artificial intelligence to improve just that. Interview with Elodie Hecq, Managing Director Asia.

What’s the story behind BeeBryte?

BeeBryte was founded end of 2015 in Singapore by Frédéric Crampé and Patrick Leguillette.

Frédéric had been in Singapore for 15 years; years he spent successfully founding and running Cleantech investment banks. Seeing that the wholesale prices of electricity are hugely volatile and highly correlated with CO2 emissions: the cleaner the energy the cheaper, he saw an incredible opportunity. What if we could shift the time when you buy electricity and the time you actually have to use it?

He contacted a friend from his engineering school, back in France. Patrick was working in the hybrid energy industry: wind or solar combined with traditional sources and had a strong background in software engineering – he was immediately enthusiastic about the project.

This is how it all started, with the original idea to via software control a battery to store energy at the right moments, here in Singapore. We patented our first optimization methodology in 2016.

However, the batteries are still quite expensive and not financially viable in most countries. We know it will come and it will be big, but as from 2017 we decided to shift our focus. We saw another opportunity to address a more pressing need: better managing the energy consumption in existing building. Most of it comes from heating or cooling, and obviously in Singapore we focus on Air Conditioning systems.

In addition to that, this is a much more sustainable business, which we’re all very happy with.

So how exactly do you do that?

In short we use artificial intelligence to help office building or factories consume electricity in a smarter, more efficient and cheaper way.

We have built a software-as-a-service with a patented real-time optimization methodology, self-learning models and predictive analytics for dynamic energy management. This platform runs in the cloud.

Then we install a simple IoT Box at the customer’s premises, and we can control flexible electric equipment (such as heating-cooling systems, electric vehicle charging stations, battery storage systems etc.). We focus on the equipment whose operation can be shifted in time without any perceptible impact on comfort or service rendered. The beauty of it is that it can be deployed on almost any cooling systems already deployed.

The cloud platform anticipates the energy needs by analyzing their historical correlations with business activity, weather, building occupation, etc. An optimal control strategy is calculated as often as necessary and the corresponding instructions are sent to the equipment via the Box.

What customers love is how we adjust the A/C with the weather forecasts. This makes us really different from any player, since we don’t just do a static and reactive control. Typically in Singapore, you actually can know a bit in advance when it is going to rain. Just before it’s hotter, whereas when rain comes the temperature will fall down naturally. So you can actually adjust the A/C before it rains, let the rain cool the building down, and then turn up the A/C again afterwards. The idea is simple – the tough part is putting it in place – and our Customers love it!

Where does BeeBryte stand as a business today?

We opened offices in France in 2016 and focused on our product. Most of our technical team was based there and focused on artificial intelligence.

Then we started commercializing our product in 2017 in France and Singapore. In Singapore our biggest Customers are DHL and Ngee Ann Polytechnic, and we work with many office buildings, factories, warehouses, museums and universities. We have a foot in 43 buildings as of today!

And in 2018 we raised SGD 4M. This enabled us to recruit a lot of people, many of them in Sales. The team doubled in a few months and was re-balanced between both countires: we now have 15 people in France and 10 in Singapore. Our solutions were mostly ready so the key objective is to strengthen our position in the market in France and Singapore, and grow in UK, Germany, Italy and Malaysia. Then in 2020 we’d like to expand in Australia: this is a very promising market for us but obviously setting up an office there will be costly so we don’t want to rush.

What is in the works in the future?

We were looking for a real partner, not just any VC -and we found it with the CNR -Compagnie Nationale du Rhône. By the way our headquarters are now in France, to be closer to them.

They are the biggest producer of electricity from renewable sources in France. Interestingly they also have a small electricity provider business with which we are working very closely.

In Singapore our positioning will remain as it is today, focusing on the value we bring. The residential market opened recently – in which BeeBryte is not interested – and suppliers spawn from 10 to 25 in the last year. All of them compete on price today, but we believe the winners will be the ones who bring a real, different value. And that’s where we come in…

Most consumers today don’t have access to the wholesale market, so they buy electricity at a determined price. The provider takes a margin to secure the potential peaks.

Hence working with a provider, we could control the loads and the consumption, meaning lower prices and risk for the provider since we balance the peaks, and as such lower prices for our customers. It’s a holistic way to manage your electricity. The objective is to get this offer out in Singapore by the end of 2019.

What are the drivers for customers to buy your solution?

There are really 2 aspects. Some companies are very focused on cost reduction, but the big MNCs are more and more interested in reducing their carbon footprint by 2030. In those cases, we have a lot more discussion with the sustainability teams than operational ones.

You can see some examples of benefits below:

If you want to know more

#StartupOfTheWeek – Muslim Pro by Bitsmedia

This week we sat down with Erwan Macé, Founder of Bitsmedia. You might not have heard of the company but they are the publisher of the first mobile application for Muslims, Muslim Pro. Great discussion where we talk passion, entrepreneurship and, well, Islam.

What is your story, Erwan?

I arrived in Singapore 31 years ago with my parents, and I have since been sharing my time between France and Singapore.

I studied at the Lycée Français, then came to France for some time and came to Indonesia for my National Service. After that I came back to Paris in 1999 to join Spray, a startup that made a lot of noise for a year and then sold during the Internet bubble. It was fun and incredible, the giraffe was one of the symbol of the company and I remember parties with Giraffes in the nightclub!

Anyway, I then came back to Singapore to join Soundbuzz as their CTO. The company had been founded by friends of mine. They eventually sold it to Motorola, and then guess what? I came back to France!

I first worked for Akamai and joined Vivendi Mobile Entertainment in 2007. I was their CTO for about 2 years and helped the build a platform to distribute games, music and video content on mobile. My wife then had an opportunity in Singapore so we came back here again. This is where I created Bitsmedia, originally to do a bit of consulting and be able to continue working for Vivendi. I created their first iPhone app, and many others.

So originally you had no plans to develop Muslim Pro?

Not at all. While I was working for Vivendi I also developed lots of apps for personal projects…apps nobody ever heard of 😉!

Then I launched Muslim Pro as a pilot / test project for Indonesia which was home to the  largest Muslim population and which I felt was about to become a huge opportunity for mobile internet services.

Now is the interesting part: it was a total failure because people had no smartphones in Indonesia back in 2010. But it was a very big hit in the US, France and in the UK.

Then in 2011 I joined Google. We’ve had discussions for 2 years, and they made me a proposal. I had a dream job: I was teaching the Google best practices to the developers in the region.

When I joined them they asked me to close all of my apps. All but one: Muslim Pro, because there was no conflict of interest.

Obviously all the best practices I was teaching I also applied them to Muslim Pro, and in July 2012 I made the decision to leave Google and focus solely on Muslim Pro which had reached its first million user.

Tough choice! And where is Muslim Pro today?

We have 70 millions unique downloads. In low season (outside Ramadan) we have more than 3 million daily active users and 15 million monthly active users. As a comparison, Carousell does in 1 month what we do in one day.

The model is simple. We have a freemium version with ads and a premium version without ads. 85% of our revenue comes from ads and 15% from Premium subscriptions.

My first 25 million users were acquired organically. I never raised funds, and my first dollar of advertising was spent in 2015.

During Ramadan we are simply the first app, before Whatsapp, Facebook and the likes!

Was it hard to built this without being a Muslim?

We worked hard to understand the community and its needs. We are the biggest app to address all needs. I think not being Muslim may have helped us become even more successful, let me explain. There are other apps, but they are usually developed by people who are Muslims from a specific country. But Islam is very diverse so these apps may be too specific to a certain vision of Islam (their own) and won’t always be helpful to other Muslims in other countries. In the early days, the other existing apps were also not developed by professional developers and were of a rather low quality. This has changed since.

Let me give you one example. For the prayers schedule, there are 15 different methods to calculate them, varying from 1 to 10mn. France is the worst by the way because there is no official religious authority. We were the very first app to support all these methods, precisely because we didn’t start from a specific country or school of thought.

What do you think makes an Entrepreneur?

I think there are 3 qualities you need.

  • Passion. I love technology, I love coding. I started coding at the age of 8. And then I was lucky that IT became mainstream.
  • Stay down to earth. I am very focused on what I have to do, on the product. I am not a big fan of startups who try to raise funds before they actually have a product.
  • Finally, knowing how to seize opportunities. It’s all about intuition, choice and a bit of luck. When I left Google, that was a hard choice! And focusing on Muslim Pro was risky, but I knew the opportunity was huge.

Today if you asked me if it was hard to get to where I am, I’d say not at all! It was hard work but it wasn’t hard.

What’s the culture at Bitsmedia?

Today we have 25 people. Half of them are in Singapore, the rest is in Jakarta and Kuala Lumpur. The development team is based with me in Singapore because I am a big believer that the quality of our product is of utmost importance. I still code with the team here!

I am very proud to say that in 10 years we have only had one resignation. It’s incredible to me. We have a strong culture: for instance I can’t work with someone if I don’t feel like I want to have lunch with them.

Our team is young and we offer things very few companies can offer. We have tens of millions of users so they have a lot of impact, and we are profitable. I am also very involved with the team, which they like as well.

I have just retired as CEO. In July 2017 I sold 90% of my shares to two Private Equity funds, and I have just stepped down to become the non executive Chairman.

Louis-Bernard Carcouet, our former COO, is taking over as our new Managing Director. Louis joined 4,5 years ago, and he was working with me at Vivendi so we have a long history together.

He came to Singapore after a trip here, and he joined PropertyGuru in 2011 to launch their app.

Being based here in Singapore means combining the best of both worlds. Technologically we live in a very advanced place, but we are just 4 hours flight away from 2 billion people who don’t have the same life conditions at all. For instance in India the uninstallation rate is huge, simply because people have low-end smartphones with small storage capacity.

Both Louis and myself are very data-driven. We do a lot of A/B testing to see what people are using in the app. We also engage the community a lot to understand them better. Another example where our neutrality is actually an advantage, we are not biased.

What does the future look like for Bitsmedia?

Well Islam is the religion of emerging countries, so we have a natural growth that follows the population growth and the smartphone penetration growth.

Now our markets are very different. They are saturated in Europe and the US. Singapore is our best conversion rate. So we need to do a lot of testing to better know the differences between our markets.

Today Google is very interested in Muslims as an audience, but they don’t really know how to go about it. Some things are competing directly, for instance Google has made an app that gives the direction to Mecca.

Even China invests in this industry. They put in a lot of money in one of our competitors. They burnt all their cash and grew quickly but it didn’t work out. They disappeared as fast as they appeared.

So the market potential is huge, we’ll see how it develops but we are in a very good position anyway.

And what are you going to do now?

I like building products more than building companies and I feel the need to start something from scratch again. Cybersecurity is where I’m heading…